For those Australians amongst us

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vorak, Mar 28, 2007.

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  1. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Thou shall not kill. One of the ten commandments, and by all means concise enough to resist ambiguity. Yet in the Bible, people are slain on numerous occasions on divine command and believers are instructed to kill people for a wide variety of purported "offences", my favorite being Deuteronomy 13:13-19:

    "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

    Perhaps I am irredeemably uneducated, but I find this a wee bit contradictionary.
     
  2. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    This is the most common 'contradiction' pointed out by naysayers, but it's more a failure of translation than a contradiction. 'Thou shalt not kill' should be 'Thou shalt not murder.'

    This is not the first time I've pointed out that there are acceptable reasons for killing:

    1. Self defence
    2. Capital punishment
    3. War
    4. Divine decree (there are plenty examples of this in the Old Testament)

    As Solomon put it so well: For everything there is season and a time to every purpose under heaven.
     
  3. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    It is indeed interesting that Yahweh should be described as fair, just and merciful when he spends most of the Old Testament doing his very best to not live up to those epithets. As should be sufficiently exemplified in the above verses, Yahwehs sense of justice is nothing but terribly off in all the wrong directions, and does certainly not speak of love as anyone in their right mind would define it. The infidels aren't even given the chance of atonement, but are slain, no questions asked. Morally objectionable? Oh yes.

    Furthermore, we have no reason to believe that children are to be spared from the onslaught, especially seeing as this particular venue was something of a fad in the days of Moses. The wording is clear enough, all inhabitants of the city must die by the sword. Appealing to Yahweh's infinite wisdom just doesn't seem right in this case. The children cannot be held responsible for whatever wrongs committed by their parents. Not even the livestock is spared, not that I could see how bovine could possibly be held guilty for anything.

    I think I just wrote how unacceptable this is.
     
  4. Frigo

    Frigo Active Member

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    Since it is the word of God, and he is benevolent, he would never lie, so any part of the Bible I pick must be true.
     
  5. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    The bible was written by humans that not God.
    If God telsl the human something, It's doesn't mean the humans understand the true meaning of him, beacuse they are only human and He is God.

    I think you all should read "When Angels Die" by Andreas Roman.
    It's a very good book about God.
     
  6. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    Why would anyone want to read non-fiction about a thing that has never been proven to exist?
     
  7. Vyenna

    Vyenna New Member

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    Wait, so Bree gets her account deleted, but Frigo gets to stay? What the fuck is that?
     
  8. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    For the same reason certain chemistry teachers celebrate Mole Day (the celebration of Avogadro's number; 6.02 X 10 to the 23rd power.), because it's something to do.

    I'm tired of seeing everyone try to convince Frigo that there is a divine presence (or are divine presences), so, Frigo, prove that God doesn't exist. Mind you, you should expect nothing but the utmost skepticism from us, considering you have nothing but the utmost skepticism in God.

    Oh, and Frigo gets to stay because he doesn't link to warez.
     
  9. Vyenna

    Vyenna New Member

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    I don't care. He's still making this a shitty place.
     
  10. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    Yet he hasn't broken the rules. (What are the rules anyway?)
     
  11. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    Ah, thats the good point.
    It is not about why God would exist, It's just gives a diffrent view on him.
    If you read it you will understand.
    It's quite short anyway, only about 200 pages.
     
  12. Telcontar

    Telcontar Well-Known Member

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    What do you recommend?
    The revised, the revised revised, or the revised, revised, revised?
     
  13. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    I'm not following you.
     
  14. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    If you read the entire chapter (anything can sound ridiculous taken out of context) you'll find that He lays down instructions for dealing with more isolated incidents of heresy/treason (they are pretty much the same thing when living under a Theocratic government). This is an example of an extreme contingency: What to when an entire city rebels against God. The same chapter explains that the idea behind publicly executing heretics and false prophets is to minimize potential for recurrence: If you know you'll be executed for it, you're less likely to try it. If you see an entire city exterminated and burned to the ground for treason, you're going to do everything in your power to prevent the same thing from happening in your home town.

    Sounds harsh, but treason is no joke.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Do not haste, I am back. With one single post though...
     
  16. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Slaughtering innocent children is morally wrong regardless of context.

    A good ruler rules out of respect, not out of fear. If a totalitarian regime would set villages ablaze and gun the citizenry down to every last man, woman and child because they supported the opposition, anyone in their right mind would condemn it.
     
  17. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    So the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in which thousands of innocent children were instantly incinerated, was wrong even though the net loss of life was reduced by the abrubt end of the war?

    There is a time and place for everything.
     
  18. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Call me hopelessly backwards, but I believe there to be a difference between soldiers dying on the field of battle and civilian casualties. After all, we call mujahedin who hide in schools cowards.
     
  19. Ditched Rosselli

    Ditched Rosselli New Member

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    That's not answering the question. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was clearly a better way of ending the war than fighting over every foot of Japan. If Okinawa and the other islands was any example (and obviously they were), then we would lose thousands of troops (probably tens of thousands) and kill most of the people on the island. So we had either drawn-out genocide or one destructive act to end the war.
     
  20. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Considering that Eisenhower, MacArthur etc were of the belief that the bombings were unnecessary on military grounds I cannot shake the feeling that unleashing the most destructive weaponry humanity had ever seen on civilian targets wasn't exactly the wisest course of action to take.
     
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